Topic: A 1972 turbo swap adventure

[65ShelbyClone]

Unfortunately LA County Raceway closed in I think it was 2007 and the motocross track not long after. Granite Construction turned it into gravel mine. The nearest actual drag strip is Famoso way up by Bakersfield. Willow Springs runs 1000' drags on the big track a few times per month during summer. The shutdown area is pretty short from what I've heard.

[Wittsend]

Yea, when I was a kid there was Irwindale, Lions, OCIR, Ontario (World Finals) and from what I gather a few more tracks in the 50's. Then came and went Terminal Island and LACR.  Irwindale Speedway (not the old drag strip) has 1/8 mile drags. It is hard to figure out where as we have decent weather for the most part, and a car culture, that racing takes such a back seat. But then this is the same area that had two NFL team, then none for quite some time, and now two teams again. Nothing makes sense.

[65ShelbyClone]

The only sense I can make of it is that CA land is really expensive, drag strips aren't usually that profitable, and absolutely nobody wants one in their backyard. In CA, the land of "green" and renewable energy mania, I can't get E85 fuel closer than 60mi in any direction. Not that it's great stuff out of the pump, but I do have the hardware to run it if I wanted.

[65ShelbyClone]

I should probably be working on the interior and wiring instead, but I wanna go fast. And hear cool noises while I do.

What do you do when you have a very specific factory Garrett turbo configuration and want to replace it with a diesel turbo that isn't a Holset?
One of these is less like the others...

Ever feel alone in a crowd?


You buy a cheap T3 turbine housing with the Ford five-bolt pattern and take some measurements. You find out that there's barely enough iron to bore and profile it to fit on the diesel cartridge.



I needed some extra clamps and the housing was already centered in the mill, so it functioned as a fixture to do so.


 What you end up with is a practically drop-in 54/61mm Borg-Warner S2E that bolts onto the 2.3T manifold and uses the stock wastegate elbow. Incidentally, the housing also fits on the closely related S200-56 that succeeded the S2E(which is the one second from left above).





The best guess I've been able to make is that it has a compressor map somewhere between the 53 and 55mm AirWerks S2B. This means that it may get pretty close to the surge line depending on when it starts making boost. This is taking the stock top end into account; it probably won't be a concern when the induction is addressed. I can always use the boost control to make a rising curve that stays under surge if needed. Or I can use the S200 with its surge ring housing.
I also want to get away from using the stock ~2 1/8" turbine elbow, but like everything with this little car, that requires moving something else out of the way. Specifically, pulling the heater box and installing a shorter motor to make space for a 3" downpipe. Even without doing that, the alternator is where the compressor has to go so that means finally putting it on the driver's side where a set of empty Pinto brackets have been bolted for...a few years?

The big dent in the compressor outlet isn't something I'm worried about; it ought to seal anyway. If it doesn't, I have an aluminum elbow to weld on it.

That "turbone" on the far left is one of those $98 ebay specials I bought for parts. The specs in the listing were a pack of lies of course, but it turned out to fall right between 46 and 50-trim T04E compressors with an actual stage III turbine. Those compressors are actually well-suited to ~250-350hp 2.3Ts so I almost used it first. Who knows how long it might last though.
There are also more parts waiting at the PO like an intercooler and plumbing. More on that as it develops.

[Wittsend]

I'm no expert on all the "ology" of these turbo mods (why I stuck with the factory set up) but it sure seems you have done your homework.

The heater motor: There have been a number of options. The one I used was the MGB motor and fan, but reverse wired. I mentioned it numerous times here. There was another fan motor someone used that would be more readily available. Perhaps you can find that as I can't recall the application.

All the best in achieving your goal. I got my stock '88 T/C swap in and basically got occupied elsewhere. The Pinto runs/drives but needs refinement. Haven't driven it in a while as all the engine parts for my Corvair SW are in the back. The blessing and curse of having a Pinto wagon.

[65ShelbyClone]

Turbo systems have been a fascination of mine for a long time and engines since childhood so I get a little enthusiastic sometimes. I've also come to realize that the automotive experience should be about what you enjoy and not strictly about what what would be ideal for a given build.

That is partly what drove the turbo choice. The yellow turbo has six main blades and the S200 and Holset have seven. Blade pass frequency is a big contributor to compressor noise and six will generate frequencies that are 14% closer to the midrange of human hearing than a seven will. A larger-than stock compressor will also spin at a lower speed to the same effect.

The stock T3 is loud below about 5psi when the shaft speed is relatively low. It then climbs rapidly until its BPF goes into the 12-14kHz range where most adults' hearing isn't as sensitive anymore. The S2E will drop that to ~8-9kHz range.
The other option was to machine an HKS T-51R style surge ring insert for either the S200 or Holset, but I'm not crazy about the note on seven-blade wheels or how obnoxiously loud they are. Search youtube for "T51R mod" and you'll see.

[65ShelbyClone]

I had a lot planned for today, but got bogged-down making a turbo oil inlet adapter so I can use the stock oil line (the S2E's inlet isn't threaded and can only use a bolt-on flange), shortening the turbo-to-manifold studs(which are A286 stainless and not nice), and removing a factory T3 wastegate can from its bracket. The wastegate was already bad, so it got cut open and the spot welds in the bottom were milled away until it fell off. I'm going to cut the bottom off one of the Borg Warner actuators, put the Garrett spring in it, and carefully weld it back together. The cans are almost identical, so I expect the opening pressure to be in the same ballpark as stock.

[65ShelbyClone]

Suppose you have a couple diesel wastegate actuators designed for 25-30psi and want them to open at 10psi like a stock 2.3T. If you're me, cut the bottoms off, take out the springs, install stock WGA guts, and weld two halves back together.
 
 
 
 
 
 Stocker on the left compared to diesel parts:
 
 
 Fortunately my welds aren't easy to see. I hadn't used a TIG in a few years and that was the thinnest metal I've ever done.
 
 
 The aforementioned oil inlet adapter.
 
 
 And it's finally starting to look official. Next is some paint on the WGA and probably a color change for the compressor.
 

[Wittsend]

That's something I'd never have thought of doing!  What lathe do you have? I'm limited to my son's Atlas 618/Craftsman 101 (never can remember which it is) or even worse my Horrible Fright lathe I got at their parking lot sale for $100 (and not sure it is worth even that).


Regarding the waste gate actuator; due to rotted sheet metal at the battery area I replaced the sheet metal. I built the panel in such a way (indented) that it allowed clocking the actuator just to the left of the frame rail.  Initially I didn't have any issues but for some time now the car will built boost and power and then it just seems that the wastegate will pop wide open (as opposed to a regulated control) and the car falls on its face with a whoosh sound.


I've pressurized the factory intercooler ('88 with a IHI small turbo) to 20 PSI and never got anything but the tiniest of porous casting bubbles. The rubber hoses all appear intact and the clamps are tight. The boost gage (factory) will easily hit 15 pounds but as the RPMs rise (about 4,000 - 4,500 RPM) the car just falls flat. I'm guessing the wastegate is popping wide open instead of regulating and perhaps the clocking of the housing/actuator is the reason??? What do you think?

[65ShelbyClone]

It's a Hardinge Toolroom lathe with a Sony DRO. It's pretty nice. My only gripe is that it's not set up for metric thread pitches.
Assuming you still have the ECU controlling the boost solenoid, it sounds like it might be detecting knock. The ECU then reduces boost back to 10psi and pulls a bunch of timing. It's an aggressive strategy and the engines really nose-over when it happens, but it keeps them from blowing up.

[65ShelbyClone]

Not much to post about the Pinto right now other than it's all torn apart and nothing is going smoothly. I forgot how tight everything fits in the car because all the engine wrenching I did was with it on a stand and then I stuck the engine & trans in together.
The 3G alternator and A/C mount had to come out before the turbo+manifold could, then it couldn't go back because now there's a bigger turbo there. Fortunately I have a 2.3 Pinto low-mount set. Unfortunately the 3G won't fit in the lower bracket unless I swing the alternator out pretty far....which can't be done because there's a battery in the way. The Pinto brackets also change pulley alignment and only allow for one belt with my setup and that's not enough for a 130A 3G. What I've had to do is take three regular 1G alternators I had shelved to make one good one and then convert back to an external voltage regulator for the time being.   My hope is to have it back together and running this weekend even if I don't get an intercooler installed.

[65ShelbyClone]

I converted back to an external regulator, moved the alternator, cut/lengthened/modified the charge air tube to fit until an intercooler is fitted, and fortunately didn't have to run to the parts store; somehow I had three new 43" alternator belts for a 2.3 Pinto. There's about 0.020" of space between the Vreg and battery and maybe 1/4" between the alternator and battery hold-down.











Now the exhaust elbow hits the the heater motor thanks to the Chinese turbine housing.


Other than pulling the heater box and changing the motor for a shorter one that I already have, it's nearly ready to run.

[Wittsend]

I'm guessing that when you go to an intercooler (Assumed FMIC) you will have to move the battery to the trunk anyway. These 2.3's in a 71-73 seem to have feeler gage clearance in all four directions.

[65ShelbyClone]

I hoped to avoid moving the battery (again) and can get an FMIC in without doing that, but it would sure free up a heap of valuable real estate. There is so much going on in that front corner of the car. Battery, Vreg & harness, distributor, alternator, throttle body, blow off valve, and soon intercooler plumbing.
Spent most of the day pulling the heater box and changing the core and fan motor. Once that was done and I had some turbo clearance, I went to bolt the downpipe back on only to find that it now hits the frame because the Chinese turbine housing doesn't have the wastegatbow bolt pattern in the same place as a real Garrett part.  I had to cut and weld the downpipe on an angle up by the turbo and in the process the MIG welder gas regulator got stuck or ruptured or something and wasn't working right.  I limped it along and got things glued together anyway. Now the downpipe fits around the frame, but no longer reaches the rest of the exhaust. At that point I'd had enough and called it a day.

[Wittsend]

Yea, being cheap like I am I used the factory '88 T/C exhaust..., yes..., even the convertor. Well..., once I got to needing a muffler (under the rear seat) everything changed beyond that. The down pipe dips a bit too low so I go over speed bumps with care. I had to slightly indent the frame rail and the outside of the down pipe. It was a little of this, a little of that but I had sufficient clearance without anything looking like it had been "beat on." I also remember (it has been about 12 years now) my son and I taking the lengthy exhaust system, straddling it in the press to bending the pipe in some fashion.

Thanks for posting your progress. You are one of the few turbo guys that posts anything these days (where are all those 'going turbo' guys from years ago???). That and the fact your car is from Simi Valley (the next city over), I had considered purchasing it - and for all these years seeing it was in good hands has made it an interesting "follow."

[65ShelbyClone]

I figure this can serve as an example of what may be necessary to stuff a 2.3T EFI drivetrain in a pre-'74 Pinto. A common attitude that I found before starting the project years ago was that it's simple, straightforwar d, easy, etc. This undoubtedly came from people who had never tried it and at best knew that Pintos came with a 2.3 sometime in production, so surely it would be simple, straightforwar d, and easy.

It is none of those things. Nothing actually fits in the car without modification, moving something else, cutting, welding, or making custom parts outright. Well, except the T3 turbo's wastegate actuator. Maybe I'll type up a list of my own gotchas some time and add it to your "So you want to do a turbo swap" thread.
Anyway, the car is running again and I drove it a bit. It's back to an open downpipe for now and sounds more awful than I remember. Surprisingly it also makes no turbo noises anymore; the T3 was quite loud. Boost response is better than expected although worse than stock. Boost recovery between gears is perceptibly slower, probably due to the larger turbine and compressor. The wastegate actuator's baseline ended up being a few psi lower than stock and turning the controller up from 23% to 50 brought peak boost to exactly 14.7psi on the data logs. The pulls weren't long enough to see if it creeps higher due to running out of road.
I'm going to break down and remote-mount the battery(moving something) so plumbing an FMIC and working on the engine will be less of a headache. Pretty sure I still have everything to build a full exhaust also plus some nice v-band flanges to make it cleaner.

[65ShelbyClone]

I've been working on the car, just not updating everything here as it's done. I removed the hood latch, cut-down the grille/hood latch/front apron support to clear the/an intercooler, put the ugly spare hood on and installed hood pins, spaced the grille out by an inch like a '74-76 car, and haven't taken pictures of any of that. Yet.

I took a deep breath and cut the tanks off a Spearco bar & plate intercooler and drew some templates for a new "back door" tank design that will make plumbing less difficult.



And I probably would have had most of it welded as of this writing, but the TIG welder's cooling fan bearings packed up and it was a three-hour venture getting it apart and fixed. (it's a 700lb transformer machine) After the intercooler gets welded, next is plumbing it, relocating the battery, installing bigger injectors, and...I dunno, maybe a muffler?

[65ShelbyClone]

I finally got the end tanks welded on a little while ago and that was a harrowing experience. I have a #9 and #17 TIG torch and found out the hard way that the gas hose to my larger #17 had completely dry-rotted its whole length and was losing the shielding gas. I started to get suspicious when 50cfh was hardly coming out the torch end. I ordered a new 25ft hose and used the little aircooled #9 torch in the interim. It gets hot very fast and requires frequent cool-downs.

 It's only the 1.5th time I've TIG welded aluminum and it looks like it, not to mention I had to remake one of the tanks because the first turned out so bad. There were a lot of things I did wrong and/or the hard way and I suppose the important part is what I learned. The biggest one is to start with new, clean metal.
I still have to make some threaded bosses for mounting the intercooler and weld them onto the top and bottom, but once that's done I can bolt it onto the car and start relocating the battery.

[Wittsend]

Well, I have never TIG welded so I for one will not comment on the welds.  My son has TIG-ed and says it is a learned skill. Life gets interesting as you get older. I've been a car guy my whole life. I majored in High School Machine Shop and Welding but back in the mid 1970's they were still "old school" methods.

 I spent a year at LA Trade Tech College in their Machine Shop program. But frankly I got frustrated. I knew that in the automotive/engine building world you need to work at times within 10,000th's of an inch. Maybe it was just the equipment we had to work with but I'd measure, see I needed to turn something .003 and set the lathe to cut .0025 as a cautionary cut and find it cut .004! Smog laws were getting stronger every year, performance was down as much as high horsepower insurance rates were up.

I just decided to shift my teen year dreams of working in a speed shop and got into Television Production which I also had an interest in.  I've always wanted to improve my machining/welding skills but now in my 60's I've concluded my son is far more capable than I am. Today my struggle is to cram my needs into his "busy" life. So, regardless of the results you may not be pleased with there is still admiration for your perseverance.

[65ShelbyClone]

I took a break from the Pinto for a while and focused on getting a new road bicycle because my old one was so decrepit from years of hard riding. Then I got a used backup bike. Then a used mountain bike. Then parts and accessories and gear. I'm not done, but the car cruising season will be here before I know it and want to get some in when the weather is good.

Last Friday I took the car out and nothing was out of the ordinary. It's still loud, but I notice the turbo sounds much better after the time away. Then on Saturday I needed to move it and the battery was flat. It was showing ~12.2v open circuit, but a small accessory load of 4A pulled it right down into the high-6v range. I'm going to try a desulfating charger on it, but that may not work since it's an Optima AGM. It's getting replaced anyway so nothing to lose by trying. Since the battery is getting relocated, now I have to decide if it's worth the hassle and expense of finding group 51 AGM batteries and using the billet tray I already have or getting a regular battery box and using a standard group 24F. Total cost is about the same.

[65ShelbyClone]

Turns out the Optima 151R battery was done for. By this time last year little 151R batteries were averaging $150 and availability was questionable. It had to be moved anyway, so I opted to use a bigger spare battery and move it all to the hatch. Now the hard part and running theme is figuring out where to fit it. The gas tank has to come out in order to put it on the driver's side. It can't go on the other side if I want a spare tire(and do).
The steering wheel I was going to put in it didn't have enough dish, so at least I got this one installed.

[oldkayaker]

I was able to install a 24 size battery in the right rear of my previous 71 runabout.  It was a lot of work and very inconvenient.  After doing a lot measuring, I cut and welded some of the interior sheet metal creating a recessed box/tray area for the battery behind the right rear wheel well and behind interior stock paneling.  It was very tight fit (no room for a battery box) so rubber padding was used to protect the battery plastic case.  I seem to remember even modifying the side light socket to create more room.  When done, the only visible evidence of the battery was by looking up inside the right wheel well where part of the metal box/tray could be seen.  In order to get to battery for maintenance, the interior panel needed to be removed along with the hatch spring assist arm which takes a while.  J.C. Penny had just come out with a maintenance free battery with a long warranty which was used.

Unfortunately this was a long time ago and I have no photos.  I used the car for towing and had reinforced the rear floor area with bolted in angle iron.  The car was rear ended, crumpling up the exterior sheet metal above the rear wheel wells.  I believe the angle iron reinforcements saved the gas tank and battery.  The insurance company totaled car.

[Wittsend]

I hated to put my battery in the drivers side/front of the engine compartment, but I didn't want it encumbering the ability to put large items in the back of the wagon. Obviously the battery can't go where it originally was intended what with the turbo now being there. Just to balance out the drivers weight the passenger front would have been better but I have the T/C relay box and the VAM hose (VAM/air cleaner is inside front fender) running through there. Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do.

[65ShelbyClone]

What kills me is that the 151R is a small battery that's factory for bunch of modern-ish cars, but it's twice the price of a 24F and twice as hard to find. 
Since there's nowhere to fit an oval 20" muffler, I got a minimalist Flowmaster FlowFX 71419 round one to tuck somewhere in the tunnel. Then I can run just pipe over the axle and out the back.
The fuel lines were also leaking when I primed the pump recently. Tightening the clamps fixed that, but they need to be done properly for obvious reasons and I picked up some more -6AN fittings and hose to facilitate that. Plan is to remove the original 1/4" vapor line, use the original 5/16 feed line as a return, and run a new 3/8 hard line for supply. It should also clean up some plumbing around the tank and add a better high-pressure filter downstream of the pump. Fun fact: late model Pontiac GTOs use a filter much like the mid-'80s Fords with Bundy fittings on both ends, but the fittings are 3/8" instead of 5/16. Problem is they're hard to find now.

[65ShelbyClone]

I was able to install a 24 size battery in the right rear of my previous 71 runabout.  It was a lot of work and very inconvenient.

I have started to seriously consider removing the rear seat and putting the battery box in the passenger side seat well.

[65ShelbyClone]

Well, I kept the back seat and routed the 0awg starter cable under the car instead. The charge cable and solenoid wiring goes through the driver's side door sill where I originally put the fuel pump wiring. I left the original solenoid on the fender simply because it was easier to tie into the stud on it than move the old charge wire/fusible link across the engine bay. Who knows, it might be useful as an emergency spare some day. I'll be doing more work on the car this weekend and will get some photos then.

[65ShelbyClone]

The car has a tediously-tied tarp over the back due to a hatch leak and that prevented me from getting good pics of the battery box install. As soon as that was done and the car driveable, I tore it apart again to start tackling exhaust.  3" exhaust.
I managed to get about 1/2" of clearance between the vent motor and bellhousing. Might put a short section of wrap on it by the bellhousing. I finally have an O2 sensor bung that fits under the car away from turbine heat. For some reason I included a second one near the stock location anyway. 

[Wittsend]

I think that is the first time I've seen the turbo exhaust fit (much less at a generous 3") with the factory fan motor! That is quite a feat. I used the MG motor/fan that gets run backwards with the factory set up. Marginal but something is better than nothing. I believe there was a modern Dodge fan someone else said worked too.

[oldkayaker]

Nice fabrication to get a 3" exhaust tube to fit.  Below is a link to the thread showing a Dodge Caravan fan motor being used for increased clearance.  There is always the option of using a A/C heater box which relocates the fan motor to inside the car.Turbo swap 1980 Runabout (fordpinto.com)

[firepinto]

I've been seeing a lot of drag racing cars using a battery that is super small.  Mike Finnegan used one on the side of his radiator support on Blasphemi.  Which did fall off I believe lol.  But I see most are mounting them under the dash next to all their EFI units.  They look like the size of a 4 pack of butter.  I was thinking of trying one in the fender in front of the passenger side front wheel.